Posts by moggy lover

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Watchtower 2011 July 15 Study Edition: Are all study editions like this?

by Tuber in

so during my research on the wts, i stubled across a link to the july 15th watchtower.. .

http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/w_e_20110715.pdf.

i'm assuming that the study editions are the ones that they only give to members/ those who attend meetings.. .

moggy lover

Nope. They aren't all like that.

Some are worse.

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How many times was Christ begotten?

by GOrwell in

in light of all the recent trinity threads, how many times do you think christ was begotten?.

The issue of the "begetting" mentioned at Hebs 1:5, revolves around the understanding that both Jews and Christians give to Ps 2. Undoubtedly both groups, back in the 1st Century AD at least, considered the second Psalm Messianic although attribution for its writing was acknowledged to be Davidic.

According to HH Rowley writing in his "The OT and Historical Study" page 167, this excerpt from the second Psalm was sung to an Israelite monarch at the time of his coronation, which was an investiture that included a ritual process of anointing. Thus the writer of Hebrews does not have a literal act of being born in mind when making use of this Psalm, but some sort of relational interface that included an investiture as King.

In almost staccato fashion, and in several powerful opening clauses to his letter, the writer cites seven OT passages, all designed to declare unequivocally, the pre-eminence of the Son over the angels. The citation in verse 5 is to point out that no angel, no matter how elevated in stature, was privileged to call God "Father" and whereas, collectively they could be called "sons of God" in the plural, the singular form "Son of God" was the exclusive possession of Him who was the Pre-eminent One. Like Christians who must express their relationship to God the Father only as a plurality - "our Father" and never "my Father" - so also the angels have the same constraint.

When then, was The Son officially declared to be the monarch, to have this second Psalm apply to Him? The writer of Hebrews is not specific, so we are forced to resort to exegesis. The most commonly held view is that this occurred at the resurrection of Christ in the light of Rom 1:4, and Acts 13:33.

I have consulted the older version of the Watchtower CD Rom, [2004] and could not find anyintelligible comment by the Watchtower leadership. Either this verse escapes them, or, they are so wrapped up in making Matt 24 say whatever it is they want it to say, that they simply can't be bothered getting any meaning congruent with their theology out of this text.

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Anyone know of a list of the 540+ variants?

by aristeas in

last year (oct.) the society of biblical literature (sbl) published a new greek text of the new testament, called the sbl edition.

its editor is michael holmes, a prof. of biblical studies at bethel college in st. paul, mn.

he had previously published a number of greek editions with english translations of the apostolic fathers (af, basically the church fathers who most immediately followed the apostles, usu.

moggy lover

Prior to reading your post I had never heard of either the SBLNT or the ECM texts. On downloading the text itself, and going into its introduction and method of preparation, my initial conclusion was that the editor, Michael Holmes was preparing an updated version of the WH text since he based his own text on that original. While still holding to that conclusion I am prepared to acknowledge that he also has some original conclusions to contribute.

I neglected to see the appendix and I agree that we do see here some variations in the SBL and UBS/NA. In James for instance, SBL agrees with UBS/NA at 2:4, but not at 2:14,16; 4:12, 5:4. While most of these are grammatical minutiae, [such as the use of the definite article at three of these texts] the last one does have significance.

The point at 5:4 is to determine what James is accusing his readers of:

1. Is is of "holding back" [aPHU-sterew] their wages or

2. Is it of "defrauding" [aPE-sterew] them of their wages?

Originally WH concluded that the better reading, attested to by the Sinaitic and the Vatican texts [both 4th century] was the former. But the UBS/NA committee, realizing that both preserve a single text type, preferred the latter reading because of its wider attestation of several text types. [Alexandrian, 5th century, PS044 8th century, TR, and other minuscules from the 4th century onward].

ECM has agreed with UBS/NA against WH/SBL.

Also one thing I did not know was that the text behind the NIV is an individualistic, eclectic one made up of several variants of other texts. I always assumed that the NIV was based on UBS4/NA.

If you are waiting for the publication of the completed ECM text to compare the two, I am afraid you will have a long wait. It is slated for release in 2085 in 19 comprehensive volumes involving thousands of pages of text!! I am glad that I won't be around, not only because of a lack of bookshelf space, but also, at 70, I won't have opportunity to plow through all that voluminous material.

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Anyone know of a list of the 540+ variants?

by aristeas in

last year (oct.) the society of biblical literature (sbl) published a new greek text of the new testament, called the sbl edition.

its editor is michael holmes, a prof. of biblical studies at bethel college in st. paul, mn.

he had previously published a number of greek editions with english translations of the apostolic fathers (af, basically the church fathers who most immediately followed the apostles, usu.

moggy lover

Sorry can't help you there. I was intrigued enough by your post to download the SBL text and have compared it with several examples of the UBS and have found no differences in reading. Holmes' major concern in his apparatus is to point to differences between the WH Tregellis and Byzantine texts and the SBL, of which there are several such, although he used WH as his base text. It appears that he has major agreement with UBS/NA in all the major textual differences between this text and the other three.

For instance, whereas WH has "me" in the text at Jo 14:14 in brackets, and Treg and By leave it out, SBL accepts the UBS/NA reading and has incorporated the word as a natural reading of the text itself.

Also at Rom 5:1 WH and the others have "ekWmen" as a subjunctive "let us have", SBL has accepted the UBS/NA reading of "ekOmen" which is an indicative. The difference is not without significance. The Watchtower would like Paul to say "Let us have peace with God" as the WH says, so that they can point out how this future possibility may be achieved.

But when Paul says "we have peace with God" he is indicating that this is not merely a possibility but is a current theological possession of the believer and is not contingent on any leadership to provide. That SBL agrees with NA/UBS is therefore significant. I personally think that the 540 variables Holmes mentions are more in the way of grammatical intrusions such as the use of "de" or "kai".

Unfortunately, failing the publication of these variants between SBL-UBS/NA in a categorized form, the only other way to detect these is to read through the entire Greek text itself and compare the two!!

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Funerals of past WTBTS presidents -

by james_woods in

ok, i thought of this last night because i remembered there have been numerous threads about how mysterious j.f.rutherfords funeral arrangements were - only four people or so did the ceremony (sort of in secrecy) and nobody to this day knows what happened to the body or where he is buried.. but it occurred to me that i was an active witness when knorr died, and just left shortly before franz died - and i know nothing about the funeral of either of them.... have no idea what they did for jaracz, or even for russell as well.

well, edit to say that i have seen the russell gravestone and pyramid shrine when i was in pittsburg pa for congregation servant's school in 1970.. does anybody know the inside information on these - where they took place, was it by invitation only, what did they do, etc.

?.

moggy lover

It was interesting to read a comment by Journeyon in the thread about one Wilhelm Schneider, once the Polish bigwig for the Watchtower. Greatly admired and respected while he was alive, his grave now lies forlorn and neglected by the very same Watchtower followers who professed to adore him in life.

The comment was to the effect that Watchtower followers are trained in the mechanics of life only, and have no interest in the memory that is created as a result of it. In this they are, like Communists of a by gone age, materialists concerned only with the physical. The spirit holds no interest for them. Thus when someone dies, even so elevated a person as a member of the GB, their interest in him ceases. Indeed they, one would imagine, immediately begin an undignified wrangle over his authority and who gets what.

If they had their way, they would as easily flush the ashes down a toilet, as they would express any sorrow over the death. Unlike Jesus, who could weep at the death of a close colleague, Watchtower follower express only indifference over the death of their leaders.

Unlike normal human behaviour, there is no "late lamented so and so of respectful memory"......only:

"good fu..ing riddance"!

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Insight on the Scriptures relies on secular sources for 539 BCE

by Doug Mason in

after starting the previous thread i realised that i had been using firefox, so here it is through ie.. the chronology article in "insight on the scriptures" accepts from secular sources the date of 539 bce for the fall of babylon.

it must do so since it is not possible for pre-christian sources to provide dates in terms of present-day calendars.. .

the chronology article, however, denigrates the dates, source material, and chronologies employed by those who provide it with that date.. .

moggy lover

Absolutely marvelous and well crafted. Wish I had your gift.

It is a total mystery to anyone with even a modicum of understanding of this subject, how the Watchtower writers could be so scholastically naive when discoursing on Biblical chronology. How the hell can anyone accept Finnegan's date of 539 BC for the fall of Babylon, when he calculates it from other dates that are in fact rejected by the Watchtower?

Evidently, these same Watchtower writers believe that the date 539 fell out of the back of a bus, is independent of any other dating, and is as mystical as it is relevant to their theology.

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Acts 8 as Interpreted by the FDS

by Ding in

i recently heard this skit on a cassette tape.

enjoy.. [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:donotoptimizeforbrowser /> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].

acts 8 as interpreted by the fds.

moggy lover

Erm....While we're on the subject, here is something that may help Watchtower followers in their quest to find evidence that the first century Christians went from door-to-door preaching. It is a fragment of an ancient ms found on my carpet the other day. It was written in the original Gibberish and has been translated by Prof Moggs my iconic cat.

"Yea, verily, it was the first day of the week and after giving a stimulating six hour public talk on the subject of How to Grovel before the Glorious GB, and having led the congregation in a two hour Manuscript Study based on the latest missal sent by the GB, the Epistle Paul did gather the faithful at the rear of the Kingdumb Hall to pair them off for the field service.

And Paul did take Timon of Athens son of Jeffery the shoe height for verily was he small of stature, and Priscilla had her spouse Aquila as a partner, although he was not desirous to go verily on this work since he desired to see the the bootball match, for verily it was the Grand Finals and the East Coast Romans were playing off against the South Spartans.

And all were paired off except for Malcolm the Malodorous who had bad breath, for verily did no one desire to go with him. And look! The Epistle Paul did go once with him, but cutting short the work, did forswear mightily, Never again with that one.

And Paul and Timon did verily call on Eddy the Inebriate, and look! did not the Epistle Paul give a mighty witness to the name of Jibberjabber at the door? Yea, verily. And Paul did tell of how bad and evil the present System of Unwanted Things was, and how Jabberer was going to destroy this System of Unwanted Things tomorrow at tea time, and if but Eddy the Inebriate was interested, the Epistle Paul would gladly start up a six month Manuscript Study in the latest codex of GB statements entitled "Latest Codex of GB Statements"

And verily did Eddy say "I do believe....." and Paul did bless him and his household and did offer the latest manuscript for a donation of six Sistares, and verily did Eddy say "Verily I do believe I shall have another drink" And Paul did execrate and thunder against him, and ripping his garments asunder, he did walk away. And yea verily the garments he ripped asunder was that of Timon of Athens, son of Jeffrey the shoe height for he was small of stature, and verily and forsooth did he sue the Epistle Paul for it was fine raiment purchased at Claudius and Binky's - Haberdashers of renown.

And Priscilla and Aquila did call on the door of Joe, son of Hector the Hammer for verily was he he a blacksmith, and Roger the Knitter, for verily were they that sort of family. And fluttering her eyelashes at hm, for look! he was comely and he found favour in her eyes, she like the Epistle Paul did give a mighty witness to you-know-who's name, for verily had she been well trained, being for years in the ministry school.

And she offered her latest manuscript to the comely youth who, besotted by Aquila, agreed to purchase the manuscript and look! did he not agree to a free six month Manuscript study, after being told that this System of Unwanted Things would at tea time tomorrow? Yea verily.

And at the end of a stimulating day of witnessing, the faithful did gather back at the Kingdumb Hall and there was much rejoicing for the Glorious GB had been magnified among the people who were agog with apathy. And all had placed literature on a contribution and all were well pleased, except the Epistle Paul who had placed nothing.

And verily, storming out in a rage, forsooth did he tell all that they had better put in their hours pronto, to be sent to the GB for their Annual Boasting Assembly to be held at Ephesus in the summer.

Meanwhile, In Corinth, The Apostle Paul, Envoy of those called "Christians", was testifying to The Lord Jesus Christ when the Gov....."

Unfortunately the manuscript breaks off here.

This translation was made by Moggy Wonder, the Iconic Cat, and the Spoiltest cat in Christendom, from an ancient manuscript written on a breezy afternoon last week. How she did it of course is a wonder in itself considering that she reads the text upside down and from left to right. And she needs glasses. Mine.

With apologies to Prof Python; Monty, of BBC University.

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